Curse

Plutoman · Aug 18, 2011, 04:41 AM // 04:41

So, here's my team. D(om) + Ill Mesmers. Thus, Dillway. May need a bit of work, but I've examined it quite in-depth and can find no major faults. Thus, I'm opening it up to criticism. Long post, beware.

Edit: I've significantly changed around the variants, and provided 3 alternative ways that stay true to the core playstyle. Credit to PurpleFlamingo for pointing out my lack of enchantment removal - a glaring mistake of mine!

Btw, I wish this forum had spoilers. The tags don't seem to work, but if anyone has a method of cleaning it up, I'd appreciate it. I've used links to the pictures of the teams to help reduce the post size.

Update: I've fixed the template codes, and made a very minor modification to the dual-invoke. I'd like to test out some even higher damage variants taking out panic for e-surge, possibly SB, too. I'd also like to create a 6-man team. I can create a 4-man version, if anyone's interested, but I think going to that few really stretches the concept (it'd essentially boil down to a mesmer, bip, and ST), while a 6-man party can still hold the gist of it. Once I get into WoC, I'll see if there's any variations or changes that can be made specifically for those mobs. Backfire may be useful, as it came quite in handy against those balanced healers of Vloxen's. I'll check it out (classes have just started, though) once I have some time, maybe this weekend. I'll also see about Frostmaw's this weekend, though I think that's simply a case of one or two copies of inspired hex.

I appreciate the comments I've gotten, I'm glad to see it's gone to some good use. I wanted to create something that has a minimal reliance on spirits (basically, dropping the entire offensive spirit line, including SoS), and drops the minions, so it's flexible and doesn't snag aggro, it's easy to maneuver, and easy to control. All the while holding the stability and firepower of a standard meta group. I think I've mostly achieved that goal, though I'm sure various tweaks per area can be made, and I'm sure the mesmer bars can be tuned better. I'll tell ya, if there's any time I'd like 10 skills, it'd be on those mesmers. Enjoy!

Core team, for elite areas - it's hefty on healing and protection.

Quote:

Core Dillway
This is the build I summarize on down the page.

Templates:
OQhkAgBqADKENQOw0jpTeGC4FwFD
OQhkAgBqAHK0Lw0TOQeGCYRgpzFD
OQhkAgBqADKEhz0TeWOwFAC4QwFD
OgNDwcPPP1CaRARLWPeJ31VC
OACjQugaoOYTrH00ZGNncDzLG
OAhkYoEIoEy0dQGj00kzw0uTC4FD
OwASAZHP+M8K13l0FvIW/qP

For melee players in a more general setting (non-elite, but still hefty on healing):

Quote:

Melee Dillway

Modifications - Strength of Honor, second smite monk, while still keeping plenty of party heals. Judge's Insight could be used, too. ST Rit now takes channeling through Ancestor's Rage and Splinter weapon. It's set for a 14 spec splinter, but if you'd prefer a more stable shelter you can modify it to a lower rank and bump up the others through the runes.

If weaken armor, MoP, or dual fall back is needed, look at the second dual smite team for how I would modify the monks to include that.

Templates:
OQhkAgBqADKENQOw0jpTeGC4FwFD
OQhkAgBqAHK0Lw0TOQeGCYRgpzFD
OQhkAgBqADKEhz0TeWOwFAC4QwFD
OACjQugqoOYTrH00ZWOxYezLG
OAhkYoE4hEy0dQGj00kzw0uTC4FD
OwASAZHP+M8K13l0FnHW/qP
OwASAZHP+M8K13l0FvIW/qP

For general play - dual smiting variant (more healing and support):

Quote:

Dual-Smite Dillway Team

Essentially, I've drawn out the E/Mo and replaced it with more damage. By doing this, it allows for a double set of fall back while in vanquishes, and the healing in addition to the DF bonus, and shelter, will be quite significant and enough to last in all but the most strenuous battles.

Templates:
OQhkAgBqADKENQOw0jpTeGC4FwFD
OQhkAgBqAHK0Lw0TOQeGCYRgpzFD
OQhkAgBqADKEhz0TeWOwFAC4QwFD
OACjQugaoOYTrH00ZGNncDzLG
OAhkYoEIoEy0dQGj00kzw0uTC4FD
OwkjApOsJO+M8K13l0Ft+V/dM
OwkjApOsJO+M8K13l0Ft+V/dM

For general play - dual invoke variant (more direct damage, but less support and healing):

Quote:

Dual-Invoke Dillway Team

Now, we get something less stable. However, it compensates by being able to destroy most mobs in seconds with immediate spikes from the ele's, and the mesmer shutdown on any reaction. It's not for those who like a sense of risk, as a double aggro at the wrong time can easily put it out. It's also for those who like to ball enemies up, because there's a 3 target limit. Don't be put off by that limit, however, because it's rare when you are in a situation to hit more enemies than that.

This build only has two healers, and only one source of protection. If you're wanting to use it, but don't like the risk, you can drop fall back for any sort of healing spell, or protection spell. Energy is generally fine, but don't stress it too much, because the BiP should only provide energy to the mesmers ideally.

In addition, the first mesmer has an additional Shatter Hex to aid in hex removal, due to the lack of Smite Hex. I've not tested that change, so I'm not sure how much it'll stress energy - it was the next best spot, due to the SB already having it.

OQhkAgBqADKENQOw0jpTeGC4QwFD
OQhkAgBqAHK0Lw0TOQeGCYRgpzFD
OQhkAgBqADKEhz0TeWOwFAC4QwFD
OACjQugaoOYTrH00ZGNncDzLG
OAhkYoEIoEy0dQGj00kzw0uTC4FD
OgljwgIspOA6vR5QHaMCH0idM
OgljwgIspOA6vR5QHaMCH0idM

Proof of validity -

Quote:

Note - I use this as a proof that the team works, not that it is 'better' than others, for I don't believe that any team is best in any way, or is ideal in even most situations. However, it is proof that -
1) The team can hold it's own. It has both the firepower to take down balanced mobs, and the ability to survive in an (albeit not-so-difficult) elite area, without player input, or even the abuse of PvE skills.
2) BiP can work in a team, even one based around it. The team is stable, and is difficult to kill. I'll mention substitutes for anything besides elite areas down a bit, because this is overkill defense on most.

Multiple screens to prove lack of cons, and a final one because I forgot to show the bars in previous screens. Just threw them all in for the heck of it. By the way, times are slow because I was talking to my girlfriend through most of it. Also disconnected during Turep - rather annoying, and lost my pathing.

I did it barless to show that the team can react without significant player input, though I did pull some groups (namely, the boss ones), and doesn't need a player to go through the area. However, the ease goes up significantly with a bar, obviously. It also shows that it does not need a tank, or special tactics - if I tried to do those, it would fail remarkably considering my ele main. Also, the ineptitude bar is a bit different - I dropped clumsiness in the final results to assist in energy, and to provide more direct damage.

On to the team... (and the why)

Quote:

The core revolves around the 3 mesmers - with a split between Illusion and Domination, to provide access to 3 powerful elites, and to provide excellent shutdown to both melee and casters alike.

Quote:

Mesmer #1: 12+4 Domination, 10+1 Illusion, 8+1 Fast Casting.
Bar - Panic (e) - Cry of Frustration - Mistrust - Unnatural Signet - Signet of Clumsiness - Wandering Eye - Shatter Enchantment - Flesh of My Flesh

This bar is fairly simple, a high dom for a longer panic. Wandering Eye has a larger range of damage than Clumsiness, along with less energy cost, so it is used. Shatter Enchantment provides some more enchantment removal.

Quote:

Mesmer #2: 12+1 Domination, 10+4 Illusion, 8+1 Fast Casting.
Bar - Ineptitude (e) - Mistrust - Cry of Frustration - Signet of Clumsiness - Wandering Eye - Power Spike - Unnatural Signet - Flesh of My Flesh

Fairly similar to above, with a different elite. Flesh of My Flesh is used on all mesmers due to it's fast casting time and low energy cost, as I deemed the health sacrifice worth the faster casting.

Quote:

Mesmer #3: 12+1 Domination, 10+4 Illusion, 8+1 Fast Casting.
Bar - Shared Burden (e) - Mistrust - Signet of Clumsiness - Cry of Frustration - Power Spike - Wandering Eye - Shatter Hex - Flesh of My Flesh

Again, similar, but Shared Burden takes the front spot. Some extra hex removal is added to the main lineup, instead of the straight Unnatural Signet. Note the position of the interrupts on the bars - I staggered them among the heroes to mix up the priorities - in hopes of it minimizing the effects of interrupt stacking.

On all 3 mesmers, there are other skills that can be used. Shatter Delusions, Spiritual Pain, and others. I deemed those to be the most appropriate, but they might not always be the best, and are open to tweaking. The elites provide a significant defensive lineup of blind, slow, and mass interruption. Sometimes, this isn't what you need - so you can swap in E-Surge as needed. As I responded for a question below, all mesmers should have at least 30+ energy, to give them a higher baseline at the 50% margin. BiP is used when they go below 50%, so they'll have more energy when it gets put on them, to help last in prolonged battles.

Quote:

Elementalist #1: 12+4 Energy Storage, 12 Protection Prayers, 3 Healing Prayers.
Bar - Ether Renewal (e) - Aura of Restoration - Aegis - Spirit Bond - Protective Spirit - Convert Hexes - Shield of Absorption - Shielding Hands

A fairly standard E/Mo, Infuse is optional. I use Convert Hexes to stack hex removal, but it is entirely optional and Reversal of Fortune is a good substitute. He/she is oftentimes the most optional person in the team, but provides good single target protection and backup on the pressured teammates when shelter fails.

Quote:

Ritualist #1: 11+3 Spawning Power, 10+1 Communing, 10 Restoration.
Bar - Soul Twisting - Shelter - Armor of Unfeeling - Boon of Creation - Soothing Memories - Spirit Light - Protective Was Kaolai - Flesh of My Flesh

A healing ST bar, essentially. I keep the rez disabled typically. The runes aren't altogether picky, I use a major rune on SP, but I honestly should use a minor rune on Restoration. Shelter provides the spirit for the copies of Spirit Light on the team, and it can stay on full time generally.

Quote:

Necromancer #1: 10+2 Soul Reaping, 8 Blood Magic, 12 Restoration.
Bar - Blood is Power - Weapon of Warding - Mend Body and Soul - Spirit Light - Protective Was Kaolai - Rip Enchantment - Foul Feast - Flesh of My Flesh

This is my battery, and I run him with an enchanting Spear/Shield set, Herald's Insignia's, and vitae runes. He generally stays alive pretty well. Typically, only the mesmers need much in the way of energy, though the ST sometimes does, so he stays in the clear. He adds in major condition removal between MBaS and Foul Feast. I added in Rip Enchantment over Life, because in battle, you should always have Shelter up.

Edit: As mentioned later in the thread, I leave the rez disabled on this character. Rezzing mid-battle is usually inadvisable for the BiP. I disable the rez on the ST in a lot of areas, too, but that one isn't usually a problem.

Quote:

Monk #1: 12+3 Smiting, 12+2 Divine Favor.
Bar - Ray of Judgement - Reversal of Damage - Smite Condition - Smite Hex - Heaven's Delight - Divine Healing - Castigation Signet - Smiter's Boon

More damage, party heals (shelter and party heals goes well), and secondary healing, condition removal, and hex removal. I underestimated this bar when I first looked at it, but it packs a lot into a single package. No wonder Smiter's was nerfed in PvP.

Summary

Quote:

This is a defensive build that packs a punch, while having significant amounts of healing and protection. Therefore, it's used in more difficult areas, which is why I posted up a screen of the DoA. I can certainly say it doesn't need any more healing.

To use this for easier areas, there's one simple thing you can do - drop the E/Mo, run two healers, and either run 2 invoke ele's (dropping the smite monk), or two RoJ smiting monks. This of course, depends on the areas in question. For melee, I recommend the monks due to the addition of melee support. In addition, I would modify the ST Rit to splinter/AR/etc instead of healing, because the two monk's DF should more than cover the extra. I provided variants for those of you interested to look at.

For casters, it can go either way - if you need the condition/hex removal, take the monks - for more direct damage, take the Ele's. Again, there is variants to show how I intend it to be used.

This build is primarily intended towards any sort of spiking build, anything with the intent to dish out damage. It is not for someone to play healer with (exception is possibly the dual-invoke dillway), or protection, or even support, degen, and other types of play. I do not recommend a minion master build, though it can be supported quite well by any generic SoS build. Calling targets is not mandatory, but is generally well received, and pulling in elite areas is still necessary at times. No other micro is needed, though I do stick Shared Burden on a hotkey in case I want to have it on a healer. It takes fairly little skill to manage this team.

I welcome any input, questions, criticism, and ideas, as long as they are worded politely. Obviously, I put a lot of effort into this, and I've been playing with this idea for a while - I would appreciate some respect towards that work when given criticism.

mage767 · Aug 18, 2011, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Can you show me some screens from Vloxen Excavations HM with your bar empty? Thanks!

Green Sscythe · Aug 18, 2011, 05:58 AM // 05:58

I like the potential. Too me it will either flop or be big. That's what it looks like to me. Here my 2 cents. Put it on PvX under trials and see what happens. It could be the next sabway or the next big joke. I'll be testing it myself but that is what I recommend.

PurpleFlamingo · Aug 18, 2011, 06:32 AM // 06:32

There are quite a few things that immediately catch my eye. The first thing is that I think you could easily get away with less defense. You have an ER prot ele, an ST/healer rit, a BiP healer, and a RoJ/Smiter's Boon semi-healer. Those first three that I listed aren't doing any damage apart from wanding. Why run ST/shelter when you have an ER prot ele? Your ele should be throwing out more than enough Prot Spirits. I also think that taking ST as your elite when you only have one spirit on the bar is a bit of a waste. ST prot rits are very strong when you don't have minions, so I'd suggest choosing between a full ST prot rit and your ER prot ele. If you chose to keep the ST rit, I'd suggest bringing some paragon support on it like "Stand Your Ground!" and "Never Surrender!". Whichever you choose to keep, you see yourself with one free character slot and still plenty of defense.

BiP is nice because it lets you stay away from Inspiration on your mesmers, but I'm not sure if mix and matching the attributes like that is optimal. I realize that's basically the whole point of your build, but have you tested these mesmers against full dom and full illusion mesmers? It is a nice idea to free up the attribute points that would normally be spent in Inspiration by running BiP which then allows you to run three copies of the best mesmer spells (Sig of Clumsiness, Mistrust, Wandering Eye), but I'd want to make sure there is a clear benefit from running the mesmers in a hybrid form like you have.

One thing you seem to have completely skipped over is enchantment removal. I normally run a few copies of Drain Enchantment on my mesmers, but that seems out of the question for your build idea. I would try to throw some enchantment removal into your teambuild somewhere.

My last criticism is that I think you have too many res's. You should easily be able to get away with three, which will free up some slots for some nice utility skills on a few of your hero bars.

I tweaked the build a little bit while trying to stay true to your general philosophy. These are the changes I would make before leaving an outpost and some changes reflect my personal preference.

*I meant to fit Enfeebling Blood onto the Curses necro

I'd really like to make that FoC bar a PoD necro, but I'd run MoP and Weaken Armor on that bar which isn't very helpful to the rest of the team (I play a Warrior though

). That whole character just came out of my idea that the build could do with less defense than you had present in the team. These are just my suggestions of how I personally would alter the build! For the record, I think "dilling" is a neat idea.

mage767 · Aug 18, 2011, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Can you post some screens from Vlox HM dungeon? Thanks!

Plutoman · Aug 18, 2011, 07:02 AM // 07:02

I appreciate the suggestions/criticism! One thing I'd like to make sure you know, as you may have missed it (it's a long post), is that I use this for the DoA. That's is generally the reason to why I have so many rezzes, and why I would run rebirth on my own character, though that's not said. I also, as a matter of fact, wanted to prove that those 3 mesmers could dish out damage, too. As the build shows, they provide generally all of the damage. I've done extensive experimentation with mesmers, and I've found that the split mesmers perform at least as well as specific mesmers, but with the extra flexibility it provides to counteract both melee and casters alike. I wouldn't have posted it up if I thought otherwise.

Reflecting on the changes for any normal area, you are entirely correct - there is way too much healing/defense. In the DoA, having a backup prot spirit is quite helpful when rage titans hit the group, but that doesn't go on in day to day vanquishes.

You did hit on one thing I missed - enchantments. Enchantment removal never struck me, and it's completely viable to include shatter, and other skills, in the build. Thinking on the spot here (and bear in mind it's 2am), I would run something similar to what you have - however, I would leave the healing on the ST. I would probably also run a second shatter enchant, instead of a second shatter hex, and drop the FoC necro. I would at first glance add a second Smiting monk, and run dual fall back on the monks (the monk adds in a second set of hex removal) or run dual invokes to tag into my own invoke build. What you have is a reasonable approach, too, so don't take my thoughts otherwise!

In short, the core of it revolves around the 3 illusion/dom mesmers, a BiP battery (which tends to run easiest as a resto, imo), and the ST for protection. Among the remaining, taking direct damage and any extra healing needed.

Btw; the reason for only one spirit with ST is that it means shelter can be put up 3 times in 15 seconds - which means about 24 contacts of >10% hp damage need to happen before any full damage hits get in. Considering the inadequacies of AI prioritization, I've found it a beneficial change to have a permanent shelter vs an almost permanent shelter, chancing a recharge, and displacement or union.

@above - I can run it if you'd like, not entirely sure why though.

Edit: Grammar and stuff. Eww 2am edits.

Olle · Aug 18, 2011, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Going to try this on my mesmer, making some sweet balls as /e should make the spike dmg eaven better.

Plutoman · Aug 18, 2011, 07:11 AM // 07:11

When I get up tomorrow, I'll put together a full team that would be intended for regular play.

Otherwise, anyone who wants to use it for that should bear in mind that it's going to be ultra-defensive for that, or they should read my summary and note my thoughts there. And a couple posts in the thread, too. :P

Plutoman · Aug 18, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

I made some significant edits to the original post, that people may be interested in. I'd love to see what people say!

Lanier · Aug 18, 2011, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Is BiP alone enough e-management for the mesmers?

Plutoman · Aug 18, 2011, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Yep, it's more than enough for most situations, and in a prolonged battle it gives a lasting source of energy to the party. The core team can sometimes have troubles with multiple good monks (read: two-three margonite Ki's), if the monks stay spread apart - especially if there's a lot of pressure, but there's rarely a time when they ever run out. However, running some additional energy helps - I sit them at 33 energy, and I wouldn't go any less. That is because the AI uses BiP when a caster is <50% energy, and that gives them a higher baseline at 50%. They'll have more energy when it's getting prioritized on them to last until they get it. You can't run a mesmer at 25 energy and expect it to go as smoothly.

drkn · Aug 18, 2011, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Have you tried it, without cons, in HM?
Not requesting screens per se, but looking for HM experience with it.

Looks great so far.

itiscurtains · Aug 18, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Interesting idea, dual-tasking your mesmers. I'll definitely be trying that out.
Curiously, why does your ST have 14 Spawning and 11 Communing? Is it for the BoC breakpoint? Otherwise, it seems like you'd be able to get an extra trigger out of Shelter by speccing something like 10+1+2 Com, 11+1 Spawning.

Illion · Aug 18, 2011, 07:36 PM // 19:36

I like the builds, I wonder if the invoke or the RoJ does a better job in DoA overall...

Will shelter be up enough to support the spirit lights? How often does the AI use spirit light without a spirit present?

Tirzan · Aug 18, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

I like the idea, working on it to fit to my Rt. Do you think the use of superior runes is worth the loss of 75hp on many chars?

teh bestest is here · Aug 18, 2011, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Had a hard time doing Frostmaw hard mode with this. Trying to change a few things so it works but still wiping at least once per level :/

Bright Star Shine · Aug 18, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Isn't an Emo + ST kind of overkill?

mage767 · Aug 18, 2011, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Isn't an Emo + ST kind of overkill?

Overkill protection, but there is some overkill damage as well from the mesmers. It is better than most builds I have seen in the forums, and I know it will certainly work in most areas, including HM. However, no build is seriously going to raise my attention unless you can C-space through Vlox HM w/empty bar + no cons.

Plutoman · Aug 19, 2011, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Isn't an Emo + ST kind of overkill?

It is. In 99% of areas, it's pretty overkill. That's why I put variations with less defensive capabilities - it shows all three areas, very high defense/medium offense, high defense high offense, and medium defense (maybe low) with very high offense. It also shows the firepower of the trio - it made it through Jadoth's group with no more assistance than a RoJ and a couple smiting skills.

It grew out of my desire to do the DoA barless, and here I am. :P

Well, I'll start with other questions.

drkn; I've tried it barless in HM to no avail, but I've done it in HM with success. Of course, this really depends on the area you're talking about - in the DoA, it'll have some success, but how much can depend on your skill, too.

itiscurtains; the ST rit doesn't have too much rigidness in the runes. As it stands, it goes for 5 solid hits without AoU, more with it. It barely makes that, though. I haven't done the math, another rune combination may be better! I'll check it and get back with it. Yay for constructive criticism.

Illion; either the core build with a solid player damage build, or the monk build would be best for DoA. The invoke's will likely be too light to make it through, unless you're careful and ball pulls of single mobs, and in that case RoJ might be superior, too.

As for Spirit Light/Shelter, yes. If shelter is down, assuming you're using the dual-smite variant, then you are probably in trouble anyways, because it'll be up 95% of the time. When you're recovering out of battle, it's generally not so critical to deal with the sac. Moreover, it's easy to pre-cast, and the n/rt doesn't lag behind, nor deal with energy issues from the lack of minions trying to cast Life.

Tirzan; Yes, I do. Since you are running on perma-shelter generally, having 500hp doesn't necessarily hurt. There's enough party-healing to deal with degen, so the health detriment doesn't matter so much. Nevertheless, I recommend having higher armor/health on the BiP so he's less of a target - which is why I specify the equipment for him/her.

teh bestest is here; If you can tell me what you have troubles with (which mob types, etc), I might be able to give a more clear answer. Frostmaw's has some unique hexes (read: wurm bile) which prove difficult, and Stormcloud Incubi can be frustrating in HM. I'll give it a try later (probably not tonight, but maybe - I'll have to see), I haven't done it with this build. I'll respond with my experience for it.

mage767; the core build doesn't work barless for Vloxen's, merely because there isn't enough damage to manage the 3-4 healer groups. I gave it a try last night, and went about 3/4ths of the way through level 2 before I got stuck on a 4-monk group. If I ran an invoke bar, it'd be a clear run through - the team held it's own quite thoroughly, but the numerous healers were frustrating, more so as they kited a lot. Going barless, I'll try the smiting or invoke variants and include results.

Thanks for the responses!

----------

Went through Vloxen's with the core build + an extra shatter for unnatural signet. Was working okay, but my internet disconnected me completely out towards the end of floor 2, and conveniently right before I was going to grab a screenshot, so I'll try again later. Vloxen's can be annoying, I'd never done HM in it. Slaver's seemed easier, but then again, I never tried slaver's without a player bar. <_<

PurpleFlamingo · Aug 19, 2011, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Ah, the extra defense makes sense if you're doing an elite area like DoA. I still think ER prot and ST prot is a bit redundant, but your ST does only have one spirit as well as a few heals. Any particular reason you chose the ST prot and no MM or offensive spirit route? I really like spirits/minions because they provide offense and defense at the same time. I'm thinking something like this (which is basically exactly what I run, except I run non-hybrid mesmers and no Bip):

(I realize this teambuild requires a mercenary. If you don't have mercenaries, just image an RoJ monk or an Invoke ele or something in there instead

)